Hey does anyone know a place Vancouver can move their AHL Affialiate?
BlueLineBaby
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 6:17pm
Someone said Colorado will be playing mainly against the other 7 teams in their division. So if we got into the ECHL, would we play mainly the same 7 teams over and over again as well? How long before people would start complaining about that? We played in a 6 team league the season before last and people could not get out of that fast enough, one of the reasons being they were sick of the same other 5 teams. How would playing against 7 other teams be much better?
Wendy
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 1:11am
Don't go bringing logic into this. The grass is always greener. Mainly because of all the fertilizer.
JR1
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:09am
BB, it wouldnt be any worse then what we saw this season in the CHL, to tell the truth... We mainly played the other IHL2 teams with a few CHL teams sprinkled in for good measure...
If we moved to the ECHL (and I dont believe it would be just us...) then we would see mainly divisional teams like K-zoo, Chicago, Cincy, Toledo, etc... but we would also see other eastern conference teams like Wheeling, Reading, Trenton,, Elmira, South Carolina, Florida, Gwinnett, etc...
I was surprised to see how many more teams are closer throughout the Eastern Conference of the ECHL to Fort Wayne than the majority of teams in the CHL... I think GM nailed it on Justins blog when he said at this point, Ft Wayne fans just wanna be able to travel to see the Komets for away games... Move to the ECHL and we suddenly have 4-5 teams within about 3.5 hours drive of the Fort instead of 1-2 as it stands right now...
Hit Somebody!!!
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:51pm
great point JR
Mr Snufflupugus
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:19pm
I think someone else has been saying that since last year.... and was told by some how the IHL3 under that format would never work.
Hit Somebody!!!
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:36am
The IHL had a good model. Bus League....Entertainment....Mix of young and old....rivalries.
No argument there.
IHL3's problem:
Where do you find enough teams to make it work that are in the geographical footprint?
Teams that are committed to the ECHL....are committed to the ECHL.
Not too many here argue that the IHL Concept was a bad thing. We all can agree that the economy didn't help matters, certain ownerships in other cities didn't help matters, and one or 2 teams having to take the load of the expenses and load of the decision making didn't help matters. The number of teams hurt the league too, obviously.
But that is ancient history now.
Currently, we are stuck in the CHL. We know travel will be insane....most of the teams near us won't draw a crowd even though they have owners that have more cents than hockey sense. Maybe that isn't fair....they just don't have the fanbase currently willing to go to the arena to watch the product??? Maybe it is marketing? Maybe it is something else?
My feeling is that the ECHL will still be standing in after this next season....and it might be the only option left.
BlueLineBaby
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 3:07pm
LOL@ Wendy....that's funny, and so true. And thanks, JR1. I think that's probably true that the teams are much closer and the travel would be easier. But we're where we are for one more year. It is what it is, I suppose. I was just making the point that it was sort of funny that some people were thinking it would be so much better to play a whopping 2 additional teams.
Mr Snufflupugus
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 9:29pm
Hit,
The whole thing about which teams are " committed" is that from one week to the next that changes. Remember when everyone here said the owners of Quad Cities would NEVER leave the CHL because they said they were a CHL team, not an IHL team? Well we see how long their committed state lasted.
Fort Wayne, Indy, Kzoo, Toledo, Bloomigton, Quad City, Wheeling, Cincy, Elmira and Reading could work. Dayton? Evansville? Flint? Port Huron? I don't know. I do believe Evansville has a chance and so does Dayton if they have any kind of stability.
I believe the AHL will go through a change as well and you might see teams like Peoria, Milwaukee and Rockford looking for a new arrangement. I think you are going to see a return of the AHL to it's eastern Canadian roots. The St Johns move has happened. They can't be left alone out there. Thunder Bay is going to get a team and that might be as far west as that league goes.
AA hockey needs to get it figured out. There isn't enough money for teams east of the Mississippi to travel west. AA hockey needs fans to be able to travel from city to city.
It will all get itself worked out. At some point some of the current thick headed owners will get tired of losing money and sell to people who hopefully are smart enough to figure it out.
Hit Somebody!!!
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:28pm
I hear you Snuff.
Which ECHL team do you think will un-commit to re-join the IHL3?
Blake Sebring
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:09pm
If gas stays at $4 a gallon, it could get very interesting.
Bob
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:17pm
When I went to work tonight, the corner gas station had unleaded at $4.099.
Things will really get interesting if prices go above $4.50 - $5.00 a gallon....
Mr Snufflupugus
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:03pm
Hit I think the teams I outlined above or a large portion of them will form a league.
Alan
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:09am
Hello Snuff, I hope you're doing well.
I read with interest your post of June 4th. You mention a number of teams who could form a league. This list of teams included Kalamazoo, Toledo, Cincinnati, Wheeling, and Reading from the ECHL along with some former IHL teams. My question is this. Why would those ECHL teams leave their league? They have invested a lot in order to participate in the ECHL and I am a little skeptical (since they are all geographically close to each other anyway) that they would give all of that up especially when so many CHL teams look like they are withering away on their own.
From my standpoint the CHL appears to be dying. We'll know a lot more after the league meetings, for sure, but we must admit that this doesn't seem to be a vibrant, growing league. I hate it, but my contention is that the ECHL will just wait out the CHL's extinction and gather up the leftovers.
I think the CHL was a convenient stop gap solution for the K's until the 2011-2012 season is over and we see what franchises survive from both leagues.
I'm not convinced that hockey in Texas, Arizona, and the deep south is viable. I think Global sold a "bill of goods" to some communities by the packages they offered. So many of these buildings seem to be money losers and the hockey teams that were supposed to fill the dates and seats totally failed. Such a large part of the CHL was formed by those business practices and now the league is substantially weaker.
At least as of today, the foundation of CHL teams reside in the areas I mentioned. The travel is crazy.
I remember those old IHL days when the Komets played the Minneapolis Millers, the Saint Paul Saints, the Des Moines Oak Leafs and later the Capitols, and the Omaha Knights. None of those teams were close in terms of distance, but they were all in, what I would call, "hockey climates".
Way, way back the Komets would car pool to these games. Hard to imagine that today, huh?
Mr Snufflupugus
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:00pm
Alan I believe that all of minor league hockey will reorganize and regionalize. AAA,AA and A. Whether the footprint I mentioned is part of the ECHL or a yet to be named league I believe it will happen. I believe the western teams in the W-ECHL will form a league of their own. I also believe the AHL will once again be an eastern league and the western teams will form their own league.
The fact is at all levels of sanity it makes no sense, not even for a playoff series for teams to travel more than a few hundred miles.
It works in baseball. Why can't hockey get it? With very few exceptions you don't see an Albuquerque coming to Fort Wayne (yeah I know different levels but you get my point).
Hockey budgets are strained. Attendance is down. Teams in a league that I mentioned can expect at least some fans to travel from visiting teams to most games. That can't happen when the Komets travel to Colorado( again with few exceptions). The Komets draw well without the help of other teams fans. Ask Rockford a few years ago how happy they were to see several hundred Komet fans in their building for that playoff comeback series. It gave the place atmosphere and was a boost to their ticket sales. That is what all levels of minor league hockey need.....in my opinion.
Mr Snufflupugus
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:02pm
Got ahead of my self. The point I was making in the last few sentences was that the Komets are one of the few teams that don't really need opposing fans in the building to draw well. Most other teams could use the extra bodies in the seats.
Silly Season
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:04pm
Mr Snufflupugus is way off base and Alan is right.
As Alan said, the ECHL will just wait out the CHL
Bob
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:42pm
While it is entirely possible that may occur (wait out CHL extinction).....but is it a sound business decision to be reactive, instead of proactive?
To me it makes more sense to have a solid business plan in place that allows one to be able to anticipate the changes that may or may not, occur.
As both a business administration major (3.75 GPA), and a hockey fan I would enjoy being able to take in a road game (without driving for 12 hours) when my lousy work schedule allows it. The last road game I went to was when K-Zoo was still in the IHL.
It only makes good business sense to be able to keep expenses at a reasonable level.
Mr. Snufflupugus and Alan have both made valid points regarding this topic, so let's not lose our heads over this.
I'm already doing that with the homework assignments I have this week....lol
Mr Snufflupugus
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:48pm
Bob keep working hard. You'll get that well earned degree soon enough and it will all be worth it.
I still get a big laugh everytime I think of that story you told me about the famous Fort Wayne mechanic and his ever revolving bullpen.
Kind of reminds me of some of the stuff that goes on here.
Mr Snufflupugus
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:51pm
What I find silly is how the impression around here is that the ECHL is in any better long term shape than the CHL. Will the CHL lose more teams this particular year? It looks like it. What about next year or the year after that? What happens when the cost of jet fuel makes it totally cost prohibitive for AA hockey teams to fly?
Bob
Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:48pm
Mr. Snufflupugus,
Thanks for the encouragement, I'm kind of struggling with this algebra class I'm in right now. I have to pass this course before I may take the math course that actually counts towards my degree program. Algebra was never my strong suit.
The shop I mentioned is still in business, and has been selling some of the cars stored in the bullpen, but I have been using a shop in Huntertown for servicing my cars, including my antique Cadillac I'm working on. It is the only place that works on our club's classic cars and I get the car returned at the end of the day, not during the next mating cycle of the Horta...lol
Alan
Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:15am
Snuff, how I wish your vision would come true!!
A couple of things to point out, however. You mention how well the minor league system works in baseball. You are exactly right. The difference is that Major league baseball takes an active role with the minor leagues through their farm systems. The NHL just doesn't care as most of their young players are brought up from the AHL ( which they do have an active and sometimes financial interest in) and the juniors.
My belief is that the NHL should get involved helping organize the minors just for the good of the sport as well as harvesting talent. A little common sense would go a long way in directing the leagues into a process where many teams could make money, "hockey" wouldn't be the laughing stock of the major sports, and the interest in the sport would draw more younger people to watch and to play the game. Maybe, just maybe. the NHL would once again be in the position of having multiple networks vying to televise their sport thus bringing in more revenue to each team.
Bob, of course it is more sensible to have a business plan. My contention is that the business plan of the ECHL is to wait out the demise of the CHL. Why invite teams in when by just waiting a year or two they can not only get the same franchises, but get the expansion ( or entrance ) fee also. If I'm an existing ECHL franchise and I had to pay the expansion fee why wouldn't I like to get a share of this "new" money? To me that sounds like a very smart business plan.
Comments
Mike it was a joke..
Hey does anyone know a place Vancouver can move their AHL Affialiate?
Someone said Colorado will be playing mainly against the other 7 teams in their division. So if we got into the ECHL, would we play mainly the same 7 teams over and over again as well? How long before people would start complaining about that? We played in a 6 team league the season before last and people could not get out of that fast enough, one of the reasons being they were sick of the same other 5 teams. How would playing against 7 other teams be much better?
Don't go bringing logic into this. The grass is always greener. Mainly because of all the fertilizer.
BB, it wouldnt be any worse then what we saw this season in the CHL, to tell the truth... We mainly played the other IHL2 teams with a few CHL teams sprinkled in for good measure...
If we moved to the ECHL (and I dont believe it would be just us...) then we would see mainly divisional teams like K-zoo, Chicago, Cincy, Toledo, etc... but we would also see other eastern conference teams like Wheeling, Reading, Trenton,, Elmira, South Carolina, Florida, Gwinnett, etc...
I was surprised to see how many more teams are closer throughout the Eastern Conference of the ECHL to Fort Wayne than the majority of teams in the CHL... I think GM nailed it on Justins blog when he said at this point, Ft Wayne fans just wanna be able to travel to see the Komets for away games... Move to the ECHL and we suddenly have 4-5 teams within about 3.5 hours drive of the Fort instead of 1-2 as it stands right now...
great point JR
I think someone else has been saying that since last year.... and was told by some how the IHL3 under that format would never work.
The IHL had a good model. Bus League....Entertainment....Mix of young and old....rivalries.
No argument there.
IHL3's problem:
Where do you find enough teams to make it work that are in the geographical footprint?
Teams that are committed to the ECHL....are committed to the ECHL.
Not too many here argue that the IHL Concept was a bad thing. We all can agree that the economy didn't help matters, certain ownerships in other cities didn't help matters, and one or 2 teams having to take the load of the expenses and load of the decision making didn't help matters. The number of teams hurt the league too, obviously.
But that is ancient history now.
Currently, we are stuck in the CHL. We know travel will be insane....most of the teams near us won't draw a crowd even though they have owners that have more cents than hockey sense. Maybe that isn't fair....they just don't have the fanbase currently willing to go to the arena to watch the product??? Maybe it is marketing? Maybe it is something else?
My feeling is that the ECHL will still be standing in after this next season....and it might be the only option left.
LOL@ Wendy....that's funny, and so true. And thanks, JR1. I think that's probably true that the teams are much closer and the travel would be easier. But we're where we are for one more year. It is what it is, I suppose. I was just making the point that it was sort of funny that some people were thinking it would be so much better to play a whopping 2 additional teams.
Hit,
The whole thing about which teams are " committed" is that from one week to the next that changes. Remember when everyone here said the owners of Quad Cities would NEVER leave the CHL because they said they were a CHL team, not an IHL team? Well we see how long their committed state lasted.
Fort Wayne, Indy, Kzoo, Toledo, Bloomigton, Quad City, Wheeling, Cincy, Elmira and Reading could work. Dayton? Evansville? Flint? Port Huron? I don't know. I do believe Evansville has a chance and so does Dayton if they have any kind of stability.
I believe the AHL will go through a change as well and you might see teams like Peoria, Milwaukee and Rockford looking for a new arrangement. I think you are going to see a return of the AHL to it's eastern Canadian roots. The St Johns move has happened. They can't be left alone out there. Thunder Bay is going to get a team and that might be as far west as that league goes.
AA hockey needs to get it figured out. There isn't enough money for teams east of the Mississippi to travel west. AA hockey needs fans to be able to travel from city to city.
It will all get itself worked out. At some point some of the current thick headed owners will get tired of losing money and sell to people who hopefully are smart enough to figure it out.
I hear you Snuff.
Which ECHL team do you think will un-commit to re-join the IHL3?
If gas stays at $4 a gallon, it could get very interesting.
When I went to work tonight, the corner gas station had unleaded at $4.099.
Things will really get interesting if prices go above $4.50 - $5.00 a gallon....
Hit I think the teams I outlined above or a large portion of them will form a league.
Hello Snuff, I hope you're doing well.
I read with interest your post of June 4th. You mention a number of teams who could form a league. This list of teams included Kalamazoo, Toledo, Cincinnati, Wheeling, and Reading from the ECHL along with some former IHL teams. My question is this. Why would those ECHL teams leave their league? They have invested a lot in order to participate in the ECHL and I am a little skeptical (since they are all geographically close to each other anyway) that they would give all of that up especially when so many CHL teams look like they are withering away on their own.
From my standpoint the CHL appears to be dying. We'll know a lot more after the league meetings, for sure, but we must admit that this doesn't seem to be a vibrant, growing league. I hate it, but my contention is that the ECHL will just wait out the CHL's extinction and gather up the leftovers.
I think the CHL was a convenient stop gap solution for the K's until the 2011-2012 season is over and we see what franchises survive from both leagues.
I'm not convinced that hockey in Texas, Arizona, and the deep south is viable. I think Global sold a "bill of goods" to some communities by the packages they offered. So many of these buildings seem to be money losers and the hockey teams that were supposed to fill the dates and seats totally failed. Such a large part of the CHL was formed by those business practices and now the league is substantially weaker.
At least as of today, the foundation of CHL teams reside in the areas I mentioned. The travel is crazy.
I remember those old IHL days when the Komets played the Minneapolis Millers, the Saint Paul Saints, the Des Moines Oak Leafs and later the Capitols, and the Omaha Knights. None of those teams were close in terms of distance, but they were all in, what I would call, "hockey climates".
Way, way back the Komets would car pool to these games. Hard to imagine that today, huh?
Alan I believe that all of minor league hockey will reorganize and regionalize. AAA,AA and A. Whether the footprint I mentioned is part of the ECHL or a yet to be named league I believe it will happen. I believe the western teams in the W-ECHL will form a league of their own. I also believe the AHL will once again be an eastern league and the western teams will form their own league.
The fact is at all levels of sanity it makes no sense, not even for a playoff series for teams to travel more than a few hundred miles.
It works in baseball. Why can't hockey get it? With very few exceptions you don't see an Albuquerque coming to Fort Wayne (yeah I know different levels but you get my point).
Hockey budgets are strained. Attendance is down. Teams in a league that I mentioned can expect at least some fans to travel from visiting teams to most games. That can't happen when the Komets travel to Colorado( again with few exceptions). The Komets draw well without the help of other teams fans. Ask Rockford a few years ago how happy they were to see several hundred Komet fans in their building for that playoff comeback series. It gave the place atmosphere and was a boost to their ticket sales. That is what all levels of minor league hockey need.....in my opinion.
Got ahead of my self. The point I was making in the last few sentences was that the Komets are one of the few teams that don't really need opposing fans in the building to draw well. Most other teams could use the extra bodies in the seats.
Mr Snufflupugus is way off base and Alan is right.
As Alan said, the ECHL will just wait out the CHL
While it is entirely possible that may occur (wait out CHL extinction).....but is it a sound business decision to be reactive, instead of proactive?
To me it makes more sense to have a solid business plan in place that allows one to be able to anticipate the changes that may or may not, occur.
As both a business administration major (3.75 GPA), and a hockey fan I would enjoy being able to take in a road game (without driving for 12 hours) when my lousy work schedule allows it. The last road game I went to was when K-Zoo was still in the IHL.
It only makes good business sense to be able to keep expenses at a reasonable level.
Mr. Snufflupugus and Alan have both made valid points regarding this topic, so let's not lose our heads over this.
I'm already doing that with the homework assignments I have this week....lol
Bob keep working hard. You'll get that well earned degree soon enough and it will all be worth it.
I still get a big laugh everytime I think of that story you told me about the famous Fort Wayne mechanic and his ever revolving bullpen.
Kind of reminds me of some of the stuff that goes on here.
What I find silly is how the impression around here is that the ECHL is in any better long term shape than the CHL. Will the CHL lose more teams this particular year? It looks like it. What about next year or the year after that? What happens when the cost of jet fuel makes it totally cost prohibitive for AA hockey teams to fly?
Mr. Snufflupugus,
Thanks for the encouragement, I'm kind of struggling with this algebra class I'm in right now. I have to pass this course before I may take the math course that actually counts towards my degree program. Algebra was never my strong suit.
The shop I mentioned is still in business, and has been selling some of the cars stored in the bullpen, but I have been using a shop in Huntertown for servicing my cars, including my antique Cadillac I'm working on. It is the only place that works on our club's classic cars and I get the car returned at the end of the day, not during the next mating cycle of the Horta...lol
Snuff, how I wish your vision would come true!!
A couple of things to point out, however. You mention how well the minor league system works in baseball. You are exactly right. The difference is that Major league baseball takes an active role with the minor leagues through their farm systems. The NHL just doesn't care as most of their young players are brought up from the AHL ( which they do have an active and sometimes financial interest in) and the juniors.
My belief is that the NHL should get involved helping organize the minors just for the good of the sport as well as harvesting talent. A little common sense would go a long way in directing the leagues into a process where many teams could make money, "hockey" wouldn't be the laughing stock of the major sports, and the interest in the sport would draw more younger people to watch and to play the game. Maybe, just maybe. the NHL would once again be in the position of having multiple networks vying to televise their sport thus bringing in more revenue to each team.
Bob, of course it is more sensible to have a business plan. My contention is that the business plan of the ECHL is to wait out the demise of the CHL. Why invite teams in when by just waiting a year or two they can not only get the same franchises, but get the expansion ( or entrance ) fee also. If I'm an existing ECHL franchise and I had to pay the expansion fee why wouldn't I like to get a share of this "new" money? To me that sounds like a very smart business plan.
Hope your studies go well.