We can go on talking and talking about the unintended consequences of raising the minimum wage, the inapprorpriateness of such government involvement in the private sector and the simple facts that most people make more than the minimum wage and most of the people who make the minimum are not poor, but it will continue to fall on deaf ears. I suspect it's because many of the people who champion the minimum wage believe as this guy does:
"It's something that's time has come," said state Sen. Frank Mrvan, D-Hammond. "The economy is doing relatively well, and it's time to share it with the workers."
Wealth, you see, is not created by by people who think they've found a need or a niche and respond by risking their time, effort and capital. There is just this big magic pot of money, and as it fills up, the money just needs to be passed around. No many how thinly we slice the pies, there will always be people around to make sure the pies keep coming.
Comments
More minimum wage talking points w/ no facts. If we're going to debate a minimum wage increase then let's do it with substance and not just hand-waving arguments.
I'll give a few statistics for the readers:
7.7 Million workers would receive a pay increase.
70% of those are 20 years of age or older
63% of these workers have at least a high school education
And most importantly -
"In 2002, minimum wage workers earned an average of 68 percent of their total family income"
All these statistics (and more) can be found at - http://www.cepr.net/publications/labor_market_2005_12.pdf
Leo:
To carry your analogy further...I wonder what will happen when the "baker" retires?
;)
B.G.
Jeff, you say: "More minimum wage talking points w/ no facts. If we're going to debate a minimum wage increase then let's do it with substance and not just hand-waving arguments."
There's only one problem with YOUR statistics though. Statistics taken from the CEPR reflect assumptions, interpretations and economic theory by the authors. The CEPR is a "think tank" founded and run by Dean Baker (author of The Conservative Nanny State & Social Security: The Phony Crisis) and Mark Weisbrot, his co-author and the author of numerous left leaning articles.
I copied your quote because I wanted to dispell any notion that the "statistics" you listed are in any way, shape or form FACTS. You may have noticed lately a little banter going back and forth by myself and other bloggers about the intellectual dishonesty of those on the left who merely recycle stats and articles as though they were facts...
I don't cite right leaning think tanks opinions and findings as FACTS....
Tim,
It's ridiculous to suggest that there's a problem w/ the statistics because they came from a think tank. The report has links to where their data came from in the data appendix section and includes explanations for certain assumptions.
Also, it's intellectually lazy to ignore an argument because the author might lean to one political side or the other. If you have specific quarrels w/ any of the statistics presented then you should bring those up for debate. That's what I was getting at in my original post.
Leo (and others) make hand-waving claims and we're supposed to give them as much credence as a thorough analysis done by 2 economists w/ PhDs?
I don't like arguments on this subject in general because neither side is persuasive and both tend to wallow in ideology rather than practicality.
The truth is, way to much money from what is usually characterized as the "govt. teat" goes to people who sit in public service waiting rooms day after day for the sole purpose of working the system like a game of Monopoly.... While those who actually need HELP to survive twist in a very dry and lonely wind because they don't fit into currently popular social service profiles.
Maybe the trouble with the minimum wage is that the usual rationalizations for keeping it too low now come uncomfortably close to the usual excuses for letting aliens apply to be guest workers at crummy wages.
The U.S. should be able to pay a living wage to human beings, one way or another. If not, maybe you should try doing without their help.
By the way, let me rush to add, we didn't develop unions, minimum wages, and minimum benefits in America in a vacuum.
If we were to water them all down in a faddish reactionary backlash, it's as sure as night follows day that we'd once again find ourselves having to jail, prosecute and litigate against the greedy elements of our human society for all our inevitable sins -- for hiring thugs with ball bats and fiction-writing accountants to bully, con, pacify and fleece America's real bosses, average American citizens who make the rules at the ballot box as needed to reign in those who decry self control.
Jeff, For every think tank that skews numbers leftward (like CEPR) I can provide one(Cato Institute) that skews numbers rightward.
My whole point is NEITHER report would be valid, as they are not just statistics, they are interpretations of data gleaned from sources friendly to their own way of thinking. They are not objective, they are tainted. What I have a problem with is EITHER side using their "think tanks" skewed opinions and reports as fact. We can dispute each others numbers all day, neither side is using facts.
As for your last paragraph, A Phd does not guarantee fairness, commmon sense or accurate reporting. I have 2 brothers with Phd's and high IQ's both of whom at times can be the dumbest asses on the face of the earth. There are a good many folks out there with Masters Degrees that don't have sense enough to come in out of the rain......an advanced education is only as good as those who will use it.
I think the authors' bios speak for themselves.
I'm just saying that we should tend to lay a little more credence to the reports from professional economists than the average joe...
"Wealth, you see, is not created by by people who think they've found a need or a niche and respond by risking their time, effort and capital."
No, it's created by people born to the right parents who hire the correct investment banker.
I think overall the minimum wage does need to be increased if for no other reason than the cost of living has increased over the last several years. But as far as wealth, some people are more financially savvy, some will lie and steal for money. I know someone who makes $14+ an hour, has great benefits, gets a big bonus each year, gets a $7000 tax refund because she has 3 illegitimate kids and gets all of these deductions and she still doesn't have a pot to piss in. She sends her kids on $765 field trips for school to Washington DC and then complains she has no money. You can raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and some people will still have nothing because they don't manage their money well.