I usually just do my posts here and let the comments flow to whatever people are most interested in. But on this one, I seek your feedback. Let me know what you think about a baseball stadium downtown.
Sometimes, when members of the editorial board are pretty much in agreement on something, I think it's a good idea to invite members from the opposite side in to try to convince us we're wrong, just to make sure we're not overlooking something. We're probably going to do that in the near future on the issue of a downtown baseball stadium. Our new publisher, Steve Broas, doesn't know the background or the issues involved enough, so he's keeping an open mind. But my colleague Bob Caylor and I are skeptical at best.
Just two of our objections:
1. We already have a perfectly good stadium. It works, it will last a long time, it draws customers who spend money in the area. If we put a new stadium downtown, there is no way to keep Memorial Stadium profitable, so hello to a new parking lot. Taxpayers paid for the stadium with their food & beverage tax, after being told it would go away when the coliseum expansion was done. So, lied to at the beginning, the stadium is torn down, and we have to pay for a new one downtown, too. That would represent being screwed three times.
2. I don't think a stadium will be quite the magic bullet for downtown that people think it will be. A good game draws about 3,000 people, yes? How many home games are there? How long does the season last? And how long, if everything goes as smoothly as possible, will this take to accomplish? Can we expect downtown to rebound and thrive while one parcel is sitting empty waiting for the baseball stadium? If we're going to make it a mult-purpose facility to get around the seasonal nature of baseball, what else goes there, and what will it cost?
There's more, but I think those are plenty of questions for the downtown stadium boosters to answer for now. I can't believe it is good economic-development strategy to move something that's working from a part of town you think can stand to lose it to a part of town you want to develop at its expense.
What to you think? Are there objections you'd like us to raise with them? Or am I, er, off-base, trying to stand in the way of downtown's best shot?
I certainly hope our sports columnist Reggie Hayes is wrong:
I still believe Memorial Stadium works, and can continue to work, in its easily accessible locale, for years to come. But sometimes momentum for change is unstoppable, and this is starting to look suspiciously that way.
Most people in Fort Wayne, including me, will give even something they don't agree with the benefit of the doubt and a chance to succeed if they think it's been honestly debated, with all the pros and cons weighed, and citizen input seriously considered. If that's not the case here -- if some are bound and determined to do it no matter what -- it won't be the thing that saves downtown. It will be the last nail in the coffin.
Comments
Taking off my Chairman's hat for a comment-
I share your concerns laid out in your second point- what will we do with the stadium when baseball is not in season?
Until I hear more about what OTHER uses they will have for this stadium, I will reserve my final judgement.
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that building a new stadium downtown is a terrible idea for many reasons.
I think Leo missed the most important reason we should not build a new stadium downtown. I will list my reasons here and I will try to keep them short:
1. Most residents I have talked to (Mostly living in The Pine Valley area in NACS) are against building a new stadium at all, especially downtown. I would guess that 75% - 80% of my neighbors in this area oppose it.
2. Memorial Stadium was built about 12 years ago. It was built to last for fifty years. We should use it for fifty years. Whenever ANY new capital project is built the life of the facility should be determined and the facility should built with this in mind.
3. We are still paying the bonds on memorial stadium.
4. I also dislike the funding issues involving the "Temporary" Food and Beverage Tax that we are still paying today that Leo discussed. I do not like to be lied to.
5. I also agree with Leo that this will NOT fix downtown. It will not draw enough people and parking will be a problem. If our officials wanted to draw people downtown they should have built Memorial Stadium downtown in the first place AND they should consider how they can encourage people to build downtown rather then North and Southwest. It is called "City Planning."
6. I generally attend two Wizards games a year. If the stadium is moved downtown I will most likely go less often. I may then go to one game a year. I wonder how many other people will do the same thing? I think it is possible, if not likely, that attendence will drop by moving downtown. We currently only fill 50% of the seats as it is over the course of a season.
7. This is another very important point that has not been mentioned yet. We cannot afford to build a new stadium. The taxpayers are already paying a variety of school bonds and other bonds from other taxing districts. We have an 84 million dollar bond for the recent library expansion
and 42 million in bonds for The Grand Wayne Center expansion. The last thing we need is new debt at this time. Lets pay off our existing bonds.
8. An even larger reason not to build a new baseball stadium is that we need to prioritize new projects. When we add debt we increase taxes. We have two large and looming projects that will have to be discussed in Fort Wayne in the next couple of years. Both will require HUGE bond issues. FWCS may ask for a couple of hundred million dollars or more to rennovate their schools. The City of Fort Wayne has to fix the sewer problems it has, we cannot keep our combined sewer system per Federal guidlelines. This project will also cost hundreds of millions of dollars.
So my reasons are a bit different then Leo's; but; I agree with his as well.
Mike Sylvester
The downtown area "Wizards" stadium is not a good idea.
I agree with most of what Mike says about it as far as the finances and political nonsense are concerned.
But, what I cannot comprehend is why anybody thinks this will be the answer for the downtown "problem". So, you go to a game downtown for 50+ dates, what do you do after the game ... either go home or go somewhere else to eat or shop.
So, what is the value the other 300 or so days of the year?
I really think they (they being "those in charge" of making these decisions)blew it when they remodeled the coliseum instead of relocating the facility downtown. Now, having a multi-use facility like that with 200+ dates (a guess) might have a chance of drawing a variety (not just baseball) of people and might force some other businesses to relocated in the vicinity.
I''l probably list some of the reasons why I think it is a bad idea later. But, shouldn't the proponents list at least one reason why we should build a stadium downtown. Asserting "its good for downtown" is just a prediction, unsupported by any reasoning that I am awre of.
Ditto...to all the reasons stated above!
I saw when Connie Mack stadium was torn down, J.F.K. Stadium demolished, Veterans Stadium imploded, and the Spectrum done away with in Philly...
(NONE of them were located "downtown")
...And ALL of these exceedingly fine sports arenas had not even gotten to HALF of their "life-expectency".
It was all about BUCKS...and we're not talking about those that went INTO ANY taxpayer's pocket, but rather went OUT OF their pockets (in very large sacks).
Fort wayne wants to be like a lot of OTHER cities, and not have "it's own" identity....And THIS (stadium) will be the impetus to turn this city into the cornerstone of the state...HOW?
Thought the GRAND WAYNE CENTER was going to make that happen.
Thought the NEW LIBRARY was going to make that happen.
Thought the COLISEUM RENOVATION was going to make that happen.
Thought HEADWATERS PARK was going to make that happen.
(guess I was wrong)
B.G.
In response to Mike's comments-
#5. The problem is that we do have competing entities- the County and the City.
When you write, "If our officials wanted to draw people downtown they should have built Memorial Stadium downtown...." you have to keep in mind that maybe some officials DID want it downtown.
You tie that into "City Planning". But the county does not care about CITY PLANNING.
#8. I agree, in a perfect world we would prioritize new projects- but once again you are blurring the lines between entities. The following entities can raise your taxes:
City of Fort Wayne
County of Allen
School Boards
Library Board (NON ELECTED)
Coliseum Board (food and beverage tax- NON ELECTED).
Each of these entities are worried about their own projects- and don't really care what priorities other entities have.
So lets put an end to all of the entities, and all of their enmity towards all of their enemies, cause in the end of this enmity between all of these enemies cause it doesnt make sense to me. follow the Cents to be sure of who gets it. see?
(greedy types, fighting over the scraps- follow the money)
I am against building any new stadium period. First we have a perfectly good stadium with parking. This parking is co-jointly used with the coliseum, which increases utilization of the property (dual purpose).
Second, if someone wants to build a stadium do it with private funds. No taxpayer money should ever be built so that someone else can make a profit. If baseball is so good, then it should stand on its own two feet without taxpayers subsidizing it.
Third, I agree with what Leo wrote.
A baseball stadium downtown might not be a bad idea if we didn't already have a perfectly serviceable baseball stadium elsewhere, a stadium which still has many, many years left in it.
What this city needs to do to attract people downtown is to make use of the rivers. I noted with interest the article in today's (6/23/06) News-Sentinel about the "comeback" of Providence, RI's rivers. (Great article, by the way!) Ok, so our rivers are muddy looking. Still, people like flowing water! (Closer to home, I understand South Bend has done some neat things with the St. Joe in their downtown. We shouldn't be ashamed to pilfer good ideas from other, similar cities, adapting them, of course, to local considerations.)
Now, could we look into cleaning the rivers? I would guess that much of the muddiness results from the runoff from farm fields upstream from Fort Wayne (but admittedly, I'm no hydrologist). It's my understanding that by historical accounts, the rivers were once clear. Is it economically feasible for them to be clear and (relatively) clean again? Since the Maumee drains into Lake Erie, cleaning up our rivers would seem to be a project that would attract federal monies. Hell, maybe Ohio could be convinced to throw in some money, if the water we send to them is cleaned up? (Okay, so I'm a dreamer.)
Anyway, even if my idea of restoring the rivers to a state of clarity not seen in two or three hundred years is utterly absurd, I think that we need to embrace our rivers--make those the focal point of our downtown restoration.
When I look at downtown I see a business district -- law firms, banking, brokers, various other professionals and corporate headquarters. There are flower shops, lunch opportunities and delivery services to support these pursuits. It would seem to me that we need that kind of urban business center, for ourselves and to attract new businesses.
In this context, the notion of a ball park downtown seems counter-productive to me, an abandonment of downtown rather than a restoration of its vitality.
When I think of a ball park I think of lights that turn night to day, a roaring crowd heard a mile in every direction, lines of slow traffic and pedestrian crowd congestion after dark before and after the event, revving engines and beer-rowdy fans, cops directing traffic, clumps of pedestrians walking brazenly in the middle of streets leading to the park, traditional concession stands, souvenirs shacks, arcades, a proliferation of gaudy signage, and even carnival action springing up on nearby streets.
I think of a blanket of litter like new snow -- made of drink cups and hot dog wrappers on sidewalks and in the streets after each and every event, and the hum of Fort Wayne street sweepers in the wee hours, clearing the trash each night in time for morning rush. I imagine a parking lot with space and adeqate entries and egresses for thousands of cars, its pavement flatly stretching...where exactly?
Is the city's vision for the renewal of Fort Wayne's downtown area to encourage a nightly temporary crush of migrant fans in and out of downtown and the inevitable flood of noise and nuisance and misdemeanor complaints from folks living from 3 Rivers Apartments to West Central and beyond?
Myself, I'd rather see new paint, repairs, sandblasted brick fronts, some new office buildings, more white collar professionals creating and supporting new careers. I'd prefer to see brain-drainers come home to embrace fresh opportunity, and downtown shops with long hours to serve them. I'd prefer a growing city skyline, business support services, new and stylish apartments with contemporary features appealing to younger career-minded businesspeople.
I'd like to see more color downtown, with adequate lighting for night activities and recreation, including the lights of open restaurants and store outlets for the upwardly mobile people living nearby and those working late to get a meal, or shop for groceries or a clean shirt.
I suspect a ball park would quickly reduce quality of life and property values in west central, cause congestion and noise for everyone else in the area, and stifle other downtown development aimed at restoration and growth as a business center.
When I look at downtown I see a business district -- law firms, banking, brokers, various other professionals and corporate headquarters. There are flower shops, lunch opportunities and delivery services to support these pursuits. It would seem to me that we need that kind of urban business center, for ourselves and to attract new businesses.
In this context, the notion of a ball park downtown seems counter-productive to me, an abandonment of downtown rather than a restoration of its vitality.
When I think of a ball park I think of lights that turn night to day, a roaring crowd heard a mile in every direction, lines of slow traffic and pedestrian crowd congestion after dark before and after the event, revving engines and beer-rowdy fans, cops directing traffic, clumps of pedestrians walking brazenly in the middle of streets leading to the park, traditional concession stands, souvenirs shacks, arcades, a proliferation of gaudy signage, and even carnival action springing up on nearby streets.
I think of a blanket of litter like new snow -- made of drink cups and hot dog wrappers on sidewalks and in the streets after each and every event, and the hum of Fort Wayne street sweepers in the wee hours, clearing the trash each night in time for morning rush. I imagine a parking lot with space and adeqate entries and egresses for thousands of cars, its pavement flatly stretching...where exactly?
Is the city's vision for the renewal of Fort Wayne's downtown area to encourage a nightly temporary crush of migrant fans in and out of downtown and the inevitable flood of noise and nuisance and misdemeanor complaints from folks living from 3 Rivers Apartments to West Central and beyond?
Myself, I'd rather see new paint, repairs, sandblasted brick fronts, some new office buildings, more white collar professionals creating and supporting new careers. I'd prefer to see brain-drainers come home to embrace fresh opportunity, and downtown shops with long hours to serve them. I'd prefer a growing city skyline, business support services, new and stylish apartments with contemporary features appealing to younger career-minded businesspeople.
I'd like to see more color downtown, with adequate lighting for night activities and recreation, including the lights of open restaurants and store outlets for the upwardly mobile people living nearby and those working late to get a meal, or shop for groceries or a clean shirt.
I suspect a ball park would quickly reduce quality of life and property values in west central, cause congestion and noise for everyone else in the area, and stifle other downtown development aimed at restoration and growth as a business center.
Don't ask me how it happened. I'm sure I only hit Post once...
- Steve
I am soooooo happy to see this type of a weblog. I have been a baseball fan all of my life and was extremely happy to hear about Fort Wayne getting a baseball team a number of years ago. When I then heard that the city fathers have decided to move the Wizards Stadium downtown and I was appalled. Their will be no parking anywhere with in miles of the stadium and it is so crowded in that area anyway. No one, absolutely no one, that I have talked to is happy about this. Everyone who I know that regularly goes to these games has said they will never go to a wizards game again if this goes through. It would cause the wizards to completely lose their fan base and have no reason to stay in Fort Wayne. I have had the honor and prickled to talk to several of the players that have played in Fort Wayne and all have said they love the city and loved playing here. Now to say hey lets move you to down town so that the downtown area can be "revitalized????" they want to encourage business to relocate to the downtown area so that they can provide jobs and improve the economy. Now you say "oh we need to move you out again to make room for something else and if you don't move we are going to make you move." That is not going to attract anyone anywhere. If you want to revitalize the downtown area invite one of the developers for a indoor water park to the area and have them look at the downtown area and they might actually pay to build the park themselves with or without tax abatements so you have an attraction that can be used 24/7 365 days a year rather then 70 days a year for about 2 to 4 hours at a time.
I am in total agreement with the other posts on this weblog (obviously). Their is just one thing that scares the crap out of me right now. I have spoken to a member of the committee who says that the study on this project is coming out later on this week (that cost the city X number of tax payer dollars) and no matter what it says the decision has been made for us. We are getting the stadium like it or not. Not only that but it has been said the city will not fund it they plan to make the new owners of the Wizards to pay for it. This does not make any sense. You will not only fail miserably in revitalizing the downtown area but also the fan base of the wizards themselves and eventually drive the Wizards from Fort Wayne itself. To have a project like this proposed was ridiculous in itself but to turn around and shove it down our throats is just down right insulting!